In Petrarchan sonnets, woman was always disdainful; the male lover was always sighing, weeping, and tends to alternate bouts of fever and chill. Donne's love poetry rejects this tradition and pleas for a more realistic vision of the relationship between men and women. Oftentimes, cynicism replaces idealism as the reigning mood in Donne's love poetry. Although Petrarchanism is acknowledged in Donne's poetry, it is always referenced with a witty cynicism.
Do you agree or disagree with the view that this "cynicism" might jeopardize sincerity in Donne's love poetry? Are you convinced by the speaker's slick tongue when he dramatizes, analyzes, and illustrates by a wealth of metaphysical analogy the state of being in love? Explain your reasons; cite any love poems from the mass of Donne's poems we read so far to prove your points.
22 comments:
When I read John Donne's poetry at the begining, I deny what he wrote because it does not make sense. But as i read it at the end, i found it reasonable and interesting. Take "Flea" for example, the flea is nothing about love but the author used something unreasonable expressions to rationalize his point. He is just like a liar in love. And he is vulgar for he wanted to have sex with the woman who was sucked by flea. Even though the author's characteristics are bad enough, we have no choice but to respect his thoughts and the way he wrote the poems.
I believe sincerity still remains true, or rather, I believe “cynicism” can actually contribute sincerity and love in Donne's love poetry after reading “The Canonization”.
I was deeply touched by the first three stanzas in “The Canonization” the poem.
In the first stanza, the speaker doesn’t care about “whom he speaks to” getting himself a course, place, and money. All he wants is the listener “lets him love”, the listener’s approval to his love. In the second stanza, the speaker describes his love never brings harm to people in a rather sarcastic way. Also, he uses lines such as “soldiers find wars”, “lawyers find out still”, and “litigious men which quarrels move” to symbolize his love as “a matter of course”. Finally, as for the third stanza, he pays no attention to names he might be called and cursed. Moreover, he portrays his and his lover’s love as a phoenix that their love shall die and rise again.
Personally, I consider John Donne’s cynicism as a necessary segment to his sincerity on love, as an engine to a vehicle.
I prefer to Donne's poems than Petrarchan's.It's more realistic and imaginable.Take "A Valediction:Forbidding Morning" for example,he compared their love to compass.This object is common thing which we can see everywhere.
He uses it to describe the refined love between them.No matter where he went,she would keep faithful and stay at home until he turn back.It's unpretentious and graceful.
I like his poems, and I am disagree with this "cynicism" might jeopardize sincerity in John Donne's love poetry, it's because of John Donne is tried to show variety of emotions in his poems, I don't think this is a disdain to female, and I think that John Donne didn't mean it too.
Absolutely yes, his poems convinced me by the speaker's slick tongue, because his used a lot of beautiful sentences to persuade another like the poem "the Flea" first stanza "It sucked me first, and now sucks thee, and in this flea our two bloods mingled be". John Donne used creative sentences to prove his love instead of using some domestic words like " I love you" or " I admire you" so forth.
To sum up, I like his poems and I don't think this "cynicism" jeopardizing sincerity in his poetry instead of making his poetry more attractive to reader.
In the last class, I could tell John Donne’s metaphysical poems from Petrarchan sonnets. And I like John Donne used cynicism to portray his love poems. Although this was unconventional way, it did not jeopardize sincerity in his love poetry. What’s better, I think he made his poems closer to reality, it seems to make it easier to convince readers, and I am included.
John Donne often used some objects in our daily life. For example, the flea or a compass in A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning. These two respectively represent mix of Trinity after their blood was blended just as they had had sex. The latter one, compass, was described as their separation. Even though one of the lovers left, he would end where he began.
I like John Donne’s poem because it as interesting as Robert Browning. John Donne’s poem is so funny and a little bit ridiculous. Sometimes you think that he is talking nonsense again because he often uses strange metaphor. But when you try to realize it carefully, you will cry out his imagination and admire his talents. They are so correct in the poem but a little force an interpretation. That’s so funny and amazing. So I will not think "cynicism" might jeopardize sincerity in Donne's love poetry. For example, “the flea” says when our blood in the flea’s body means we get together. First I read this poem think it is ridiculous, but after the class, I think his faculty use so well.
I do not like the poem like “to George sand” and the sonnet. They are all the same type and make me feels drowsy. Soul, flower, love…maybe I can recite all of the elements in them. How boring they are.
At beginning I believe that John Donne is a genius because not all people can describe metaphysical objects as vivid as him. However, after I read some of his poem, I think that he distorts the common sense which has long been agree in people’s mind. Take A Valediction : Forbidding Mourning for example, John Donne considers that couples who are forced to be separate from each other can't be sorrow. Due to their divine loves which are different from lay people. He also interprets their love to compass. Although he and his lover will separate, they will still meet at the end just like the compass.
In this poem John Donne thinks that two couples departure don’t need to be mourning. However, in my point of view these ideas are not accord with human feelings. Normally people will feel grief if they had to apart from their lover or family. Nevertheless, John Donne regards grief as forbidden things in a farewell occasion. Maybe in the time of John Donne, he thinks this is the best way to translate feelings but in nowadays society, I can’t acquire consensus with him.
Being straightforward, passionate or even bald is hard for people to easily actually showing it. But that's not what i think. Showing ture feeling should be the most easiest thing to do for the one u love, bue people had been taught to "play coy".
Love is always being showed in a too fantastic ways. On the contrary,Donne uses stuffs that are really related to our daily life or things we always know, even like fleas that suck blood.
Although the way he uses are very clear-cut or sometimes even too radical, that's what makes love so real,and also with the basic passion and desire for someone.
I agree with the view that Donne use cynicism to describe his love poetry. Although it might jeopardize sincerity, I think poetry should express personal style and own feature. I like his poetry because they have their characteristics that belong to he, and impressing me a lots.
Take “A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning” for example, the poem explains that a maudlin show of emotion would cheapen their love then reduce it to the level of the ordinary and mundane. After all, their love is transcendent and heavenly. Other husbands and wives who know only physical, earthly love, weep and sob when they separate for a time, for they dread the loss of physical closeness. But because Donne and his wife have a spiritual as well as physical dimension to their love, they will never really be apart, he says. Their souls will remain united–even though their bodies are separated–until he returns to England.
I think John Donne has poetic talents because he often uses metaphysical object in his poem to describe love. That attract the reader interest to keep reading and think deeply.His poetry is noted for its vibrancy of language and inventiveness of metaphor.
I do not think cynicism jeopardizing sincerity in Donne's love poetry. I like his dramatic the state of being in love. For example, in " The Flea" poem, his aptitude for turning the least likely images into elaborate symbol of love and romance. He uses the flea as an erotic image. Donne hints at the erotic without explicitly refering to sex. At the same time, he sill convey what he means.
When the beginning i read John's poem i think it is very ridiculous i think all he said is in order to encompass his indecency behave .Like to have sex with the lady, but after i read the whole poem i gradual convinced by the poet. i totally admire the poet , he use his odd thinking to convinced reader. his point in the beginning is very strange but he can use those strange points to proof and let people convinced by him.
in "The flea" he said they already married in the flea's body to let the lady sleep with him.In the beginning i think the flea is just a creature but in john's point flea is figure to be the conjoin between the men and lady . let's really interesting.so i impress by this poem.
I firmly believe that the cynicism irrigates the sincerity in Donne’s love poetry. It may be vivid and beautiful through criticizing the situation.
In “The Sun Rising,” the speaker puts an emphasis on in an angry tone that a couple of lover, the winner, overcome the sun, the looser. The sun is a saucy and pedantic wretch. And in line four, he wonders if lovers’ seasons must run to the sun’ movement. In line nine to ten, he points out there is no seasons, climes, hours, days, and months in the world of love because time will make love deteriorate. Oftentimes I feel frustrated about why time flies so fast when being with my lover, even my relationships. So I always hope time can be frozen and love will be preserved permanently. In line twenty-four, the speaker’s love is gold refined from the sun, the symbol of metal scraps. The sun is mimic; the love is authentic. Therefore, in the final stanza, the speaker says his bed is the center of the sun. Only following him, it can warm the world. Also there won’t be days and nights.
In my opinion, I will realize how pretty things are only to analyze and criticize them. In other words, I will cloy when reading love poem consisting of pure and flawless romances.
I have to say that I desagree with the view that this "cynicism" might jeopardize sincerity in John Donne's love poetry. Although when I first started reading his poem, I found it hard to be convinced by the speaker's slick tongue when he dramatizes and analyzes the state of being in love, gradually, I started to be convinced by what speaker says.
In John Donne's poem "The Sun Rising," the speaker blames the sun for waking him up in the morning because he wants to be with his lover. At first, I didn't think it was very convincing, but as the speaker begins to explain more, I started to think that the speak is quite cleaver. In this poem, the speaker says "I could eclipse and cloud them with a wink,/But that I would not lose her sight so long:" The speaker says that he can use his wink, and the beams will disappear, but he doesn't want to do that because he doesn't want to lose the sight of her. The speaker is right, he could simply use his wink so he can make the beams disappear,but he doesn't want to lose the sight of his lover, which makes the readers realize how much he loves his lover and wants to see her, and also make the readers convince of what he says.
In my opinion, I disagree the view that the cynicism might jeopardize sincerity in Donne`s love poetry. The author use the special way to explain his own love. Donne used the metaphysical conceit to explore our formal love. In the poem “The Sun Rising”, the speaker was angry with the sun disturb the little world which belonged he and his lover. The speaker showed the attitude of cynicism toward the sun. The poem said that “Saucy pedantic wretch, go chide”. The speaker showed that rude attitude toward the sun and people will think this attitude is cynicism. For my own opinion is that this would not jeopardize sincerity in his love poem but improves my impression to their love. Donne used the metaphysical conceit to explore our imagination and made his poem become more vivid.
For the second question, I will exactly say yes. For a person which lived in seventeenth century can have those witty imaginations which is we can not think of it. When I read the poem of John Donne, I can not really realize the things which he used in poem such as the flea or the computation. Through much information and the explanation of professor, I just realize the poem. For example, the poem computation, through the exaggeration of time and number we see that his love toward his lover is so pure and faithful.
The "cynicism" way of writing is his character, so it does not jeopardizes sincerity in Donne's love poetry. I like the way John Donne writes love poems. His poems are witty and full of things that can persuade reader to believe what he is saying.
Take “The Sun Rising” for example. In the poem, the man tells the sun not to call on him and his lover. The speaker even says “I could eclipse and cloud them with a wink, But that I would not lose her sight so long”. Their love can compare the India spice and mine. And they have all things that a king has. Other peoples love are all honor`s mimic, all wealth alchemy. At last the speaker says that the sun only has half of his happiness, because the sun`s duty is to warm up the whole world. On the other hand, the speaker`s room is his everything, so he is the happiest person. He even take pity on the sun: “To warm the world, that`s done in warming us”. Tells the sun to come to their room and stay there. I think John Donne write love poems in a special way. He is very witty and smart.
Eileen Chang once mentioned that life is just like a grown but filled with fleas. (生命是一襲華美的袍,爬滿了蚤子) I think this sentence is just similar with the "cynicism" poetry written by John Donne. In reality, love is not always like the typical type written in Petrarch sonnets that man who pursue a lady with a hot blood and said that “if you don’t love me, my heart will die.” On the contrary, John conveys his poems in this “cynicism” way, in my opinion, don’t jeopardize the sincerity; what’s more, even accordance with the reality. Take “the flea” for example; this poem uses the image of a flea that has just bitten the speaker and his beloved to sketch an interesting conflict over whether the two will engage in premarital sex. In this poem, I found that the love poem is not always romantic and totally spiritual; it can be a kind of sensual desire.
To be honest, John Donne’s cynicism and slick tongue does not convince me at all. As a lover, I would not even bother to take the time to listen to his nonsense, especially in the flea he wrote “This flea is you and I, and this our marriage bed, and marriage temple is”. I think it is just ridiculous. However, as a poet, I think he is a genius. He makes sense in the nonsense and expresses in a creative way. Also, I would be flattered to receive a poem like “The Computation”.
When I read John Donne’s poetries, I think it is interesting. In my cognition, love poetry is so sweet and full of clichéd words. But John Donne’s love poetries are so different. He is against the Petrarchanism, which describes love in ideal words. John Donne uses witty ways to portrait the love.
For example, in the “The Computation”, John Donne uses counting to reveal the long-existed love which maintain one hundred year. For another example, in the “The Flea”, John Donne uses daily things such as flea to reappear the plea. Such witty technique reveals that John Donne is a talented and brilliant poet.
At first, I do think cynicism might jeopardize sincerity in Donne's love poetry. For me, his poem is so weird and lacks of logic. But after I think it over and understand the meaning of allusions and images that he used in his poem, I realize how creative and witty his poem is. Take the poem “The Flea” for example; he uses many strange images and allusion to describe the relationship and situation between him and his lover. He uses the allusion of the Trinity to imply that he already had a union with his lover inside the flea’s body, and he links the image of the big belly of the flea to a image of pregnancy, he claims that his lover already lose her virtue after the flea bites her, there’s nothing she can do. To sum up, the speaker is so witty that he turns a ordinary subject in to a extraordinary love poem.
I cannot tell that I surely agree or not because I have two different thoughts about John Donne's poetry.
In the poem “The Flea”, I agree that cynicism does damage to the speaker’s love. For example, “It sucked me first, and now sucks thee, / And in this flea our two bloods mingled be;” explain that the speaker wants to be with the woman. / …Where we almost, yea more than, married are. / This flea is you and I,” In my viewpoint, the speaker has delusion and is very sly to say so because through the flea he thinks that he has a relationship with the woman. Rather than love, I only feel disgusted about his deed and I cannot figure out where his sincerity is. All I can understand is his personal willingness. The speaker is like the annoying butterfly flying around the woman.
However, the speaker in another poem, “The Computation,” convinces me by his wealth of metaphysical analogy. The speaker says that “I scarce believed thou couldst be gone away; / …Tears drowned one hundred, and sighs blew out two; / A thousand, I did neither think, nor do,” The speaker exaggerates the departing time of an hour into a century, and this dramatic description intrigues my interest about the reason why they have to depart. Moreover, tears drowned the speaker and the sighs are unable to cease. The love must be so impressive and important to the speaker that the speaker needs so much time to heal.
The two kinds of poems vary my thoughts about the speakers' sincere loves.
Sorry, I made mistakes.
The order of second paragraph,line three to line seven, should be this,“It sucked me first, and now sucks thee, / And in this flea our two bloods mingled be;” / …Where we almost, yea more than, married are. / This flea is you and I,”explain that the speaker wants to be with the woman.
The poetry of John Donne is very different from Petrarchan sonnets.The love in Petrarchan conceit is so dramatic and noisy but in John Donne's poems is quiter and calm.I don't think the "cynicism" might jeopardize sincerity in Donne's love poetry.
I am convinced by Donne's slick tongue when he analyzes and illustrates by a wealth of metaphysical analogy.For examples,
"A Valediction:Forbidding Mouring"
and "The Computation".The first poem was written by Donne for his wife and it's about his leaving and he wishes her do not cry because they will always be together just like using a compass to draw a circle makes the end back to the begining.The second one is about lovers that they can not bear their lover's absence.Each hour for not seeing each other is just like a century.Both seem calm.
Post a Comment